Danielle Baker

Welcome to the Oregon Cryonics forum
jordansparks
Site Admin
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Danielle Baker

Postby jordansparks » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:26 pm

Zoltan Istvan just contributed an article to Quartz:
https://qz.com/1555363/cryogenics-is-facing-legal-trouble-with-body-preservation/
I'm quoted in it. While the quotes are technically accurate, I'm not sure the context is accurate. I think the best thing to do here is to just list out what I think are the areas of potential misunderstanding:

"Eric Homeyer, a volunteer representative of Oregon Cryonics"
Well, not exactly. He was a volunteer, and he did put in a lot of effort, but he was most definitely not a representative of Oregon Cryonics.

"Deutsch is incorrect in saying that any laws were broken in Kentucky"
I think the law was broken.

"The coroner always follows the wishes of the next of kin"
I was stating the policy of this particular coroner. I was not in any way implying that the policy of this coroner was ethical or legal.

"the great majority of US states don’t abide by cryonics contracts"
Nobody needs to abide by a contract except the two parties to the contract. A contract does not obligate any third party to do anything.

"creation of ... a legally binding framework of rules and guidelines that US states would implement to respect and honor ... Documents of Gift."
Those legally binding rules already exist as the UAGA, but people don't usually object at the funeral home, so it's not usually an issue. We don't need any new laws. If it had been a local case or a case with adequate finances, there might have been a better chance of fighting the family with something like an injunction, for example. We clearly explained that the rights of Oregon Cryonics were superior to the rights of the next of kin.

My final comment on this case is that I am absolutely stunned by the depth of evil in the coroner and funeral director, Doug Bowling. I thought I had seen everything. I didn't think anyone could stoop lower than some of the BS I've witnessed in the past. I thought professionals had certain standards. And then I had the pleasure of interacting with Doug Bowling. He was aware of the Document of Gift and the wishes of Danielle, but he just decided to disregard those wishes and deliberately violate very clear state statutes. This experience has affected me deeply. I didn't think I could get any more cynical or distrusting, but this event pushed me even further down that path. Doug is a sorry excuse for a human. Since there are probably a lot of "Dougs" out there, it's very important not to end up as a coroner's case.

MortonLem
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:05 am

Re: Danielle Baker

Postby MortonLem » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:59 am

If that's so, the funeral director really is a lowlife. I hate to say that, but it's true.

jordansparks
Site Admin
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Re: Danielle Baker

Postby jordansparks » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:28 am

In spite of my strong feelings of injustice in this case, I think it's also worth noting that Doug Bowling did not actually harm Danielle. Her chances of revival were already zero. I believe her body went undiscovered for about three days. There was nothing left of her mind by that point. It was irretrievably lost. So an even more important lesson than avoiding the coroner is to make sure you are surrounded by cryonicists when you die, and that there is not a time delay.

MaximilianKohler
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Danielle Baker

Postby MaximilianKohler » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:03 pm

Jordan, to people such as myself who do not believe that 3 days necessarily equates to complete information-theoretic death (I refer to things like memories stored in DNA/RNA), this is extremely concerning and cannot be brushed off as "they actually did no harm since she was already dead". To me this equates with murder and there should be legal action taken against the responsible entities.

Who was the responsible entity? Did the coroner order the body to be cremated? If not, the funeral director is to blame no?

I'm wondering why this post by you doesn't talk about legal action. You also mention finances to be a part of the issue, could you elaborate more on why this occurred and what cryonicists might do to avoid situations like this from happening?

jordansparks
Site Admin
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:59 pm

Re: Danielle Baker

Postby jordansparks » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:47 pm

Well, believing in something doesn't make it true. We know that preserving all molecular structure, including all synapses, axons, DNA, etc. would preserve memory. But it's just not plausible that the DNA alone is enough. I've thought about this exact issue for years. Tell you what, go try to convince a neuroscientist. They will laugh at you. They are the experts. I no longer humor people who believe this. I just tell them they are wrong.

We can't take legal action because it would take time and money that would be better spent on other things. Danielle had no money at all, which is a common and deadly situation.

MaximilianKohler
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Danielle Baker

Postby MaximilianKohler » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:05 pm

So she had a completed contract but it wasn't funded? Was this the primary issue? Did her family chose to cremate her because of the cost?

This reminds me of the warning Mike Darwin made in regards to CI having never had a court case defending one of their patients, when contrarily, Alcor has shown they're willing to defend their patients in court.


Return to “Forum”