Helping the cryonics cause

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jordansparks
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Helping the cryonics cause

Postby jordansparks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:55 pm

I talk to many people who want to help advance cryonics. They want to somehow contribute to our cause. Well, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there's really nothing you can do. It's too big of a problem, and you have too few resources. You can't volunteer or donate or do anything else that will change the status quo at all.
What I would suggest instead is to look very closely at how you might improve your own chances of a good preservation. Quit thinking about "the cause" and just focus on saving your own life. Even after you have narrowed your focus, you will still find it to be an extremely daunting task. The odds will still be very much against you. Mother nature is cruel and merciless. Even if you work really really hard on just saving yourself, you will probably fail. But at least your priorities will be rational.

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DetnPx » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:36 am

I usually tell people to quit their current day-time job, if they can afford it. The people who've made improvements to cryonics in the past and still do, are the ones who devoted 40-100% of their productive hours to it. Background is not very important, as it can be anything from design, outreach, fundraising, technical R&D to science. Focus, preferrably full time, is essential.

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby jordansparks » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:19 am

That's the complete opposite of what I'm suggesting. How does quitting your daytime job help ensure your survival? It would just make you poor and unfunded. I'm trying to discourage people from any outreach, fundraising, volunteering, etc. My entire point is that it's all completely useless because it's chasing the wrong goal. What action should you take? I have no idea. But at least start by defining the appropriate goal. "Improving cryonics" is a completely insane quixotic goal. I'm certainly not trying to improve cryonics other than as a completely incidental byproduct of trying to ensure my own survival.

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DetnPx » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:51 am

Imagine if Aubrey de Grey had setup a forum and had written what you just wrote, do you estimate any useful technology and science developing towards the goal of slowing or ending aging would have happened?

Ofcourse not.

Even if the goal is your own survival, you have to pull in others to create exponential development. If your quote would be everyone's approach, how will revival ever happen? Impossible. 1,000,000+ preserved brains from ancient historic relics, most damaged beyond realistic repair, noone ever bothering as it doesn't aid their own survival.

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DataPacRat
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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DataPacRat » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:03 am

One option that might be worth considering is to examine the suggestions made by 'Effective Altruists' on how to be most effective at one's altruism, and then apply those same tactics with the goal of personal survival. For example, very few people have any special skills at doing charity, or at performing cryonics outreach; in which case a viable strategy may be to target your career at acquiring as much cash as possible, which can then be spent on hiring somebody with the right skills to do a better job than you can do on your own. (There are some limits to this strategy, such as that working hard enough to negatively affect your health defeats much of the point; but a strategy with some constraints can still be a useful strategy.)

This is an adaptation of the principles behind a long-known piece of economics, the 'Law of Comparative Advantage'. That is, even if a every one of a bunch of people can all do any piece of the work, if they each focus on what they're best at, they can all end up better-off than if they just work at whatever's most obviously useful.
Thank you for your time,
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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DetnPx » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:20 am

DataPacRat, I completely underwrite that theory explicitly and employ this on a daily basis by hiring every best expert for every possible position, and not doing such myself when I don't have the particular expertise.

Yet, the problem in cryonics is, on a global scale, ~nobody is an expert in cryonics. Like maybe 20 years ago, nobody was an expert in the physical principles of human aging. We have to train people ourselves, and chasing them away doesn't do anything. If Alcor had told Steve Graber to keep working on custom cars manufacturing, his greatest expertise before he joined Alcor as a volunteer/employee, how would Alcor benefit? Even if he had donated 25% of his other job's salary, Alcor would be a stand-still. Steve Graber is currently making the most in-house developments at Alcor.

My personal theory for cryonics is, we have to align someone's non-cryonics expertise towards the field of cryonics so that they can do a productive job moving a part of the process towards improvement (which definately includes outreach and fundraising, as this funds can fund the people who do the actual R&D).

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DetnPx » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:31 am

Hypothetical conversation, 5-8 years ago:

Steve Graber: "Max, how can I do something for cryonics? Can I volunteer?"
Max More: "NO! GO AWAY! NOBODY CAN DO ANYTHING FOR CRYONICS! KEEP YOUR CURRENT JOB AND MAKE MONEY TO SURVIVE!"

Bam. The most productive engineer at Alcor chased away and dozens of pieces of equipment would never have been constructed.

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby DataPacRat » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:40 am

DetnPx wrote:We have to train people ourselves


The trouble there is that we bounce right back into the problem of cryonics' general lack of acceptance. With cryonists being on the rough order of one in a million of the general population, any strategy at increasing interest in cryonics which doesn't have a good model for why 99.9999% of people aren't interested, and thus can reduce that percentage, seems unlikely to succeed. And if somebody has that psycho-social model ready to go, then that opens up a lot more options than simply training more researchers.


(Yes, I have a very rough theory for such a model; it's largely based on David Graeber's "Debt: The First 5000 Years", but isn't a good enough model for me to figure out how to counter it. Very roughly, it's that human minds equate being permanently separated from one's family and community with permanently dying, and cryonics' promise of being revived in some distant future among strangers doesn't offer enough to counter-balance that instinct, save in a rather small part of the population. Naturally, this model could be entirely wrong, and as soon as I see a reason to chuck it in favour of something else, I'll toss it without a qualm.)

Edit:
Hypothetical conversation


And how does that differ from applying the law of comparative advantage? Ie, finding somebody skilled instead of fending off countless unskilled folk with a suggestion they leverage their skills at money-acquisition instead?
Thank you for your time,
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jordansparks
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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby jordansparks » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:40 am

My advice is the most rational, so I think it's also the most common course of action, including in all your examples. My advice won't change anyone's mind. I'm just stating what should be obvious and what most people already do intuitively.

Aubrey probably followed that path because he wanted to solve aging for his own selfish reasons. We will have to agree to disagree on whether he has had any success. Alcor actually does turn away many volunteers. Steve probably went to work at Alcor because he thought it would help his survival.

> Even if the goal is your own survival, you have to pull in others to create exponential development.
The technology really isn't that complicated. Both aldehyde fixation and cryopreservation are very mature techniques. No exponential development needed.

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Re: Helping the cryonics cause

Postby immorta » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:24 pm

I think i can help with general communication of needs, resources and abilities of/for the Cryonics community in general,
so we can figure about what we have, know, what we're up to.

I do a Cryonics Community map project http://cryonet,info
& I'm an Admin of several Future-oriented and cryonics meetup groups in NYC, forming workgroups on that topic.

5100 https://www.meetup.com/BLKNY30/
460 https://www.meetup.com/PaxSolaria/
250 https://www.meetup.com/Transhumanism-An ... larity-AI/
620 https://www.meetup.com/NYC-Biohacking/
160 https://www.meetup.com/Cosmism-Meetup/

I am also manging 2K members "Algorithm and data structures" developers meetup - you can propose a hackaton or a programming project.
https://www.meetup.com/algorithm/

What's your particular :
1) needs
2) resources
3) abilities ?

Do you have R&D projects descriptions ?

it is better to double your answer here izobrel at icloud.com


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