Wait but Why

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jordansparks
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Wait but Why

Postby jordansparks » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:56 pm

There's a fairly well written article about cryonics here:
https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html
But the ideas that it lays out are flawed, and are based on the utopian Alcor and CI themes instead of on science.
1. Become a member, get a life insurance policy, wear a bracelet, die. This might make you feel good, but it won't help you survive. The exception is if you live in Detroit, Phoenix, or maybe LA. If you live anywhere else, all you've done is purchase alternative funeral arrangements. The cryonics companies are naive to suggest otherwise. (I'm not going to call them dishonest because I think they actually believe this BS). The "cryonics window" is extremely short (when it exists at all) because of the difficulty of getting chemicals into old deteriorated capillaries. These are not healthy brains.
2. Cool off and get transferred. Unfortunately, surface cooling is too slow. At the same time, internal cooling is too complicated, as is very obvious from just reading through any case reports. Internal cooling takes far too long, and then it nearly always fails anyway. Cooling off and getting transferred may prevent outright necrosis, but it will not preserve your mind.
3. Get vitrified to be brought back in near-perfect condition. That link is to ACS with no delay, healthy brains, and aldehyde stabilization. That has no connection at all to the service that cryonics companies are hawking.
4. Blue-Green-Yellow segments. The quality of the preservation will not affect the time needed to bridge the gap. Every single cryonics patient is damaged at the molecular level, so there's no such thing as "higher-quality" that could shorten your preservation. That's a myth. The blue line in the graphs should be essentially horizontal until just a few years before the yellow diagonal line would hit it. There is no last in first out except for those last few cases over 100 years from now. I don't mind showing the yellow line curving up, but that blue line needs to stay horizontal.
5. Pascal's Wager should not be rehashed for cryonics. It suffers from the fallacy of "avoiding the wrong hell". This is far more relevant than you might first imagine. What if you pick the wrong kind of cryonics? What if the current popular cryonics is useless, and there's a slightly different procedure that works better? You've avoided the wrong hell. Instead of Pascal's Wager, use evidence of preservation quality as an argument.
6. Hope: Yeah, that does sound gullible. Stick to science.

PCmorphy72
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby PCmorphy72 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:13 am

internal cooling is too complicated
In "My Time of Dying" I’d like assisted suicide under the well-known/widely-used induced hypothermia: any experimental/exotic drug into my still pumping blood would be better than any “well-used” pure barbiturate. That’s "legally" too complicated even in Oregon.
Last edited by PCmorphy72 on Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

jordansparks
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby jordansparks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:13 am

I consider cooling to be a second line of defense. Immediate chemical treatment of the cells to halt metabolism and add cross-links should be the primary goal. But since we know that perfusion is not uniform, cold perfusate can be used to slow metabolism in nearby tissue. Conductive heat transfer is so much slower than most people intuitively think because they confuse it with convective heat transfer. As a real-world example, consider thawing a turkey. In the fridge, it takes about 4 days. Even in a water bath, it takes about 8 hours. Why should it take so long? Because conductive heat transfer is just really really slow. A cryonics ice bath is a terrible idea because there are clearly better options. Instead of wasting time on an ice bath, we plan to use a reliable and proven surgical technique that usually takes under one minute so that we can start perfusion immediately. Cooling is secondary. When I say "internal cooling is too complicated," I mean using their techniques.

PCmorphy72
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby PCmorphy72 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:28 am

Although I slightly edited my post just while you were replying, since I quoted your “internal cooling” I think it was clear that I was talking about "convective induced hypothermia" (perhaps at lower temperatures than these/those techniques).

jordansparks
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby jordansparks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:50 am

Yes, hypothermia would be great, but as you agreed, it's never going to be used on a cryonics patient. Even the laws for pets won't allow premortem hypothermia.

PCmorphy72
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby PCmorphy72 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:58 am

I agree, actually, but not with your “never”.

jordansparks
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Re: Wait but Why

Postby jordansparks » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:04 am

Well, never in my natural lifetime. Never in the next 50 years at least.


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