Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

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MaximilianKohler
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Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

The CI 2023 Annual Meeting had Nikki present her progress with https://www.cryonicsmonitoring.org. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtAnD1nr8EQ&t=3939s. The main benefit over the current CI phone app https://cryonics.org/members/ci-check-in-app/ is that the alarm/alert could go off when you're sleeping too.

The remaining question is who will be alerted by the app/device? It's vital that an entity is able to respond immediately and be able to enter the person's home.

I suspect that most people have a friend or relative as the first person (and that person then contacts CI/Alcor/Oregon Cryo), but I think a service/institution is much more reliable. Relatives often don't support a person's cryonics wishes, and the relative may die first and thus not be available to notify anyone. If the relative doesn't live nearby, then the relative contacting the police (for a wellness check) is insufficient since the police do not have a way to enter the home.

Since I am signed up with SA (Suspended Animation), and live near them, I was thinking that having someone at SA notified by the app and notifying them about a hidden key location would be the best. But SA tells me that they don't accept being the first person to be notified by the CI app.

SA doesn't even get directly contacted by CI/Alcor. They are using a 3rd party answering service as a middleman. They said that their answering service needs to be contacted by a person - a text or automated contact won't work. So it doesn't seem like we can use the app to alert the 3rd party answering service. And even if we could, the ability for first responders to enter would be an issue.

There are probably plenty of people who don't have a reliable "first contact" person. I don't think CI or Alcor accept being contacted directly with the app. I know Alcor offers to call their members every 6 hours or so, but I don't find that to be a good option. The CI app's hourly alarm is superior and less annoying.

When I first installed the app, I was just getting used to smartphones, and I had some false alerts due to using "silent" mode instead of "do not disturb". Now, I usually only send off a false alarm about once a year, and I usually respond with the "never mind it was an accident" text within a minute or two. CI may have thousands of members but I think there are only around 100 using the app. If they all had a yearly false alert it shouldn't add too much burden on a central entity receiving those alerts.

Perhaps we should contact Alcor to see if their "we'll call you every 6 hours" service can be modified to simply be a first contact for the CI app alerts? I think a small fee for such a service would be reasonable, and it should be much less than what Alcor charges to call you twice a day.

It would be great if there were more groups like the Minnesota Cryonics Rapid Response https://minnesotacryonicsrapidresponse.org (video presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtAnD1nr8EQ&t=2583s). But so far, cryonicists in California and Arizona seem uninterested in forming such a group.

How is Oregon Cryo dealing with this?

I will alert Nikki of this thread as well. Perhaps it's something that her group is contemplating and willing to get involved in.
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

A related thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11
jonano wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:58 pm Hi,

Here at my city and in my province, we have a service for old people who are alone. The police call the old person alone, everyday and the person needs to press on a number, number 1 I think and then the police know that the person is alive. If there is a missing (you dont press during a day), then someone you have decided like the owner of your building, appartment or the concierge can go at your appartment and look if you are well. If not then they call 911. This police service exist in various city here in Quebec, and maybe in Canada or USA. Maybe someone here know that if so then confirm.

--Jon
Starman Jones
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Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:46 am

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by Starman Jones »

For this highly practical and reality oriented post ... So many communications on cryonics forums are sort of fantasy related
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

Starman, it's not clear to me from your response whether this is something you care about. I assume you're using the CI app and depending on your wife to notify Alcor if you die? What if your wife dies before you? You would rot for days with no one knowing? Have you tried to form groups like Minnesota Cryonics Rapid Response? I have in the Socal/AZ area and no one has been interested.
Starman Jones
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Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by Starman Jones »

She would know if I die..she is younger than me and in.good health...as for other cryos, i am alone in this Phoenix area.. except for one cryo friend

But aren't we all in some sense?
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

Well, it sounds like you're all set then. If she's as healthy and young as this guy there's no need to worry.

There is no way you're the only cryo in the Phoenix area.
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

I discussed it with Nikki a bit, and her group does have plans, but they're long-term and not necessarily the most optimal solution.

Some things to keep in mind:
  • It's important for the police to arrive ASAP because of restrictions/laws around messing with dead bodies. So you can't have a non-police 3rd party arrive and start icing the patient until the police arrive.
  • Police do "wellness checkups", so it's already a normal service for them. The main issue is having a way for them to be able to enter the house/apt.

At this point, I think petitioning Alcor to change their service from one that calls people twice a day, to one that can deal with CI app notifications, is the best current path. So far, CI doesn't seem interested in offering such a service.

I was thinking that ACS (American Cryonics Society) might be able to partake in this sort of thing but they never responded to me.
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

I wrote to Alcor but haven't received a response. We also discussed it more in the private CI group, but apparently no one is interested. I think it's vital to have a service that can respond to CI app alerts and call 911, so hopefully more people contact their cryo providers about this.

Dennis Kowalski let us know about some useful ways to allow the police & fire department in though -- a Knox box https://www.knoxbox.com -- a box that only police and fire departments have a key to. You put your home's door key in it and they lock it up and hang it on your door.

* They have residential ones for ~$200-$400 https://www.knoxbox.com/KNOX/media/KNOX ... nal-68.pdf.
* The bigger one is about 3" thick https://trlsystems.shop/content/Residen ... 0Sheet.pdf.
* And the smaller one 2" thick https://trlsystems.shop/content/Residen ... 0Sheet.pdf.
* Mine has to fit between my door and screendoor, and those dimensions seem like they would.

They only indicate that they allow the fire department in though. Only the "gate access" ones allow fire and police. I contacted Knox and they implied that the police have access to all of them, but they weren't being clear. And after a bit more prodding they told me to contact my fire department, which I did, and I learned that the police do not have keys for the residential Knox boxes. This is important because as far as I know, it's the police who do wellness checks.

I contacted the police department and they said I could use one of these https://www.amazon.com/Keybox-Lockbox-S ... 0B14HJSJM/ coded lockboxes, and call police dispatch, and the police can store it in their system, and they automatically look it up when responding to calls to an address.

That would work for police, and if you wanted the fire department to have access you'd have to also buy one of the Knox boxes.

The design of the amazon link above isn't great because it's not locked to your door in any way unless you have a specific door handle it can lock onto. So someone can just slip it off, take it somewhere, hit it with a hammer or something, and get the key to your door.

There are some here that can be mounted to the wall https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Hide+a+Key&r ... nb_sb_noss

I think "over the door" is the best since it's more versatile and can be used anywhere, but the ones I'm finding are keys instead of combinations https://roperlock.com/product-category/ ... over-door/

NYT review of some, but no door mount https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/revi ... -lock-box/ - they recommend wall-mounted ones.

I found this mount https://www.amazon.com/ShurLok-SL-180-L ... 006Y3IEEQ/ but it's not very secure. It would be easy to cut.

This condo lock box door hanger https://studio4signs.com/product/lock-b ... or-hanger/ might be slightly better, but that type of lock is still easy to cut with bolt cutters.

I found these, that look like the top-rated NYT pick, except with a door mount:
https://doorlocksdirect.com/kidde-home- ... um-001017/
https://doorlocksdirect.com/kidde-home- ... ck-000604/

Since they're way up at the top of the door that makes it harder to open. Could be a pro or con. I suspect the Combination Dial one would be especially difficult to open for people who aren't quite tall. But even for the Pushbutton one, the numbers of the buttons would be difficult to read if you were not tall. I think you should be able to mount it to the side of the door though.

Perhaps an Over-the-Door Steel Drop Box like this https://www.pochar.com/products/db22-h would be better. It's less obvious that there are keys inside it, so perhaps that's a benefit. 5.5" is probably too thick for my door though.

Here is one for real-estate agents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-estate_lock_box.

This is only a "solution" if you have people you can rely on to receive and act on alerts from the CI app, AND you also need to have some sort of local response group such as SA, MCRR, or a local funeral director who you've established a good relationship with.

Also, the file of life packet https://www.thefileoflife.org/ informs emergency workers when you can't do so yourself. The sticker goes on your front door/car bumper or window to alert first responders that there is an information packet on your refrigerator, car glove box, etc. And there's a similar phone app called "ICE - in case of emergency" that puts emergency info on your phone's lock screen.
jordansparks
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Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by jordansparks »

My plan is to be surrounded by multiple people at all times when I'm old. I'm hoping this will be supplemented by much better technology because I'm still probably 35 years out. But my plan is expensive -- very expensive. I'm talking about private nurses around the clock in addition to various other support staff like cooks and custodians. The low cost alternative to my plan is to intentionally end up in a nursing home where the staff is properly trained and where you have an advocate who regularly visits. The better the staffing levels, the better your odds.
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

Even if someone has a lot of money to spend, most people don't, and inexpensive options should be available soon. It would be important that your patients/clients have something available to them too no?

Nikki's app isn't too far away, and that'll reduce the alert delay down from 1 hour to just some minutes. The missing pieces are a service that can take alerts and send help, and a nearby response team like SA, ICE, or a funeral director.

I've heard bad things about nursing homes so I don't think that's a great solution. If you have the money, a better solution might be to hire a nurse to be at your home 24/7.
jordansparks
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Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by jordansparks »

We are getting closer every day to being able to take those kinds of phone calls for local patients. It really doesn't do any good at all if you don't have a local advocate. If we get a phone call, we would have nobody to send to check on you unless you had a local advocate. The solution is going to be human connections rather than tech for a long time. I personally spent months trying to build alert software. It's just too hard, which is why it doesn't exist yet.
MaximilianKohler
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:54 pm

Re: Monitoring and rapid response to Prevent Unattended Death

Post by MaximilianKohler »

jordansparks wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:04 pm If we get a phone call, we would have nobody to send to check on you unless you had a local advocate.
The police... for a wellness check, which is what this thread covered.
I personally spent months trying to build alert software. It's just too hard, which is why it doesn't exist yet.
The CI app exists. Its downside is that it's 1-hour minimum and won't alert anyone when you're sleeping. Nikki's project is hardware-limited, but it should be done soon.
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